Posts Tagged ‘HTML’

Early Technology, The Web, A Girl's Softball League

11 Jan


Give That Kid A Ball


To: Joe Austin
Date: Mon Jan 11, 1999 6:27:25 PM

Joe—sorry to have missed you at Kevin's last night. Sue told me that you perhaps were ready to move on this softball league web project, and it's getting tough trying to contain my enthusiasm over the possibility of working with you in mapping out a web presence for your league[s].

I myself played baseball up through highschool, and would love to construct such a site based on my love of the game. As you certainly realize, spring and the grueling schedule will soon be upon us, and if we are to do business I'd like to get as much of the infrastructure in place and the thorough testing phase finished before the crunch of the season is upon us.

Took a looksee at the Firebirds site. Not a bad site, is comprehensive, fun, informative, although an online personal stats page would probably add to the delight of the players. Aesthetically speaking, I think the 'Birds page could certainly be improved, that is to say, tweaked here and there to tighten it up, spiff up the graphics, and make the site generally more pleasant on the eyes, and yes, there is no place for the players and coaches to swap messages in a Bulletin Board or forum, which is what you have indicated is a desired feature of your league site. The 'Birds guestbook is a well-known third-party application that I once used in my own sites, but in recent months the free guestbook as grown increasingly troublesome due to the high traffic along the LPage corridors.

I suppose your next question would be, well, how much would I charge to to replicate, or improve upon this site exponentially, based on the number of squads in the league.

First of all, depending on the ISP, in this case Erols, tiered levels of monthly accounts can be purchased to help with the page, or rather, storage space limitations. This is measured in megabytes, and with each dial-in account, usually ten to 20 megabytes of storage space is made available to the ISP customer. Depending on the size of the league, one may actually be able to host a limited site on one of these "free" accounts. But with all the graphics, multiplied over the 70s squads you mentioned, you may have to buy extra storage, if you were to opt for the "free" dial-in webspace. Of course, the league would not be able to use a private domain name with an ISP company such as Erol's, although there are other virtual hosting companies which provide this service, as does our own company.

However special knowledge and special permissions by the ISP are required in order to run interactive web site CGI program add-ons, such as an interactive forum. More often than not, CGI add-ons are prohibited by the ISP. If allowed, this solution however, can be very complex and expensive, particularly since most commercial servers are not Macintosh servers, but one of a variety of UNIX flavors, each with certain criteria and programming language subtleties, and therefore usually require administration expertise by even more expensive technicians than the ordinary "web designer" can offer.

That said, I believe I can build you the a strikingly beautiful interactive site for less money than than you would pay any professional designer in the area, and maintain it for you for next to nothing. But I need to know how many squads your league site intends to host. Of course, the larger the contracted job, the better rates per team you would be charged.

I would like to host the sites on our own Macintosh webservers. While my usual rates are higher than somea cross the nation, they are lower than many others. Any web hosting companies do not include ANY maintenance services. They merely provide the server space. You would still require a HTML designer and a web server technician for any troubleshooting and updates.

Let me be frank. I just finished a makeover job similar in size to the Firebirds that was handed to me by another company that didn't want to touch it for the money involved. I was paid $500. That is the same fee I would charge you to do a "makeover" of this Firebirds site, less ten per cent. Once a solid template for the site has been designed and established, the cost could possibly be lowered for additional squads, again, depending on the size of the whole job. This may sound like a lot of money to you, or it may not. But it IS a lot of work to put together a clean, easy to navigate, interesting and beautiful site. The site set-up and domain name registration and annual fees (first two years) are extra ($155 total). If you decided to host your site with Graphic Solutions Ink Systems, I would reduce the annual server fees (ordinarily $55/month for the entire league), and over the course of the season, make the weekly updates at a modest charge, or gratis, depending on the agreed contract. Or once the design is finished, perhaps someone in the league with HTML and FTP knowledge and software can be issued a password and make the weekly changes herself. The interactive bulletin board functional for the entire league would incur an additional one-time $500 fee. For a working example of an interactive forum, please point your browser to:

As Sue has mentioned, we would be happy Joe, to give a comprehensive presentation of the features and desired beauty your site can offer and to help clarify any matters of cost or maintenance hassles involved.

Please phone, or confer with Sue to arrange a convenient time we can meet for this discussion.


Gabriel Thy
Creative Director
Graphic Solutions Ink Systems

Very Energetic Alpha Particles

08 Jan


Deserving Gods


Date: Friday January 8, 1999

Thanks for testing the search engine. I still haven't heard back from Matt after I posted your success in reaching it, making it work. He was off to the geological library job interview, said they were pleading for help, seriously understaffed.

Meanwhile Bracken called, was planning on returning the HTML book. What??? I shot back. What a flake! And off we were again rehashing the other night's hem and haw. Then I interrupted to tell him about the latest wrinkle in the GSIS client pool and now he says he just wants to make money. I told him I didn't wanna be conned. I rattled around a bit more, insisted he shit or get off the pot, that he dump this stupid anti-work rhetoric and play by the damned rules of normal sweat of the brow, or else go about his own funny business, following up those well-vocalized dreams of being some great writer. He replied that he was ready for a fresh start, new year, writing was all done for now, and all that jazz. I emphasized that he needed to LEARN something and quit all this hype nonsense. He insisted he would. Talked about taking a class. I retorted that he didn't need to take a damned class. I hadn't. With the WAP Webmasters Design & maintenance SIGs about to be formed, a good manual, and some on-the-job training, he would be in like Flynn (if he canned the power trip bullshit).

I then again asked him to explain to me what specifically possessed him to call me up this morning and off his tongue roll the words that he wanted to return my book. He replied that he thought we had resolved to keep somewhat of a soft safe distance between us while "remaining" friends. I told him he needed to get past this ridiculous paranoia that people were out to get him, blackmail him, oroptherwise hurt him along some bogus conspiracy crap like that, and meanwhile I thought he had agreed to accept last week's drunken nonsense for what it was, a drunken circus act, and simply get on with life in the real world instead of whatever it is he lives in...

I dunno. Very energetic alpha particles float around him like an aura, but that lad acts like some half-cocked prima nocta lost without a fluffer sometimes.

Oh yes, his opening paragraph consisted of praise he was passing along about my website (which one I didn't ask), that was offered him from some big name publisher contact of his. I guess that finally validated my work for him. Geesch. What kind of cross do I have to bear with these yahoos. Magnetic attraction I guess, like lonesome molecules attracting like, or the opposite, popping electrons, nagging neutrons hungry for an atomic fusion they know nothing about, or a more compelling karma because their mutual electromagnetic repulsion is stronger than any attraction the nuclear force they admire can muster. Such is the collapse of the post-modern hipster...


There's Nothing Straighter Than True Plumb, Bob

19 Aug


The Friendship Wars


Originally published Aug 19, 1997. Italics Steve Taylor, plain text mine.

Damn. I just clicked on an iMote page, and it is all twisted. Wrong graphics in the wrong places, and another graphic skewed. Gotta go investigate. Maybe Bob's right. My life ain't life. Maybe he'll let me join in his weekly WWII strategy board game, or watch his stockpile of Japanese anime videos. Now that's life. I know I'm just being petty here, but it really burns the bone that among friends and neighbors every choice one makes is shit, and Bob has always done that to me. My poetry is bad. My writing makes no sense. My web work is not life. Even after all the GT vs. SET fires belching in the belly, and that most recent flamewar certainly left scars, I can at least say that you have always encouraged me in my struggle to express my loneliness and insights through writing and creative images and with the technical additions of web producing, you've been my only true visitor. I don't know what that says about you, but thanks anyway. And again, congratulations on your new aspirations. You are indeed cock of the walk when it comes to nailing job interviews.

You are quite welcome. And thanks for letting me know. It does mean much to me to have some positive impact out there—and it is nice to keep in contact from here in the PA void. I'm glad that I now have had time to read, write (a bit, anyway), surf, relax...and actually think about what works, what matters, what the hell...I kept busy and manic enough in DC to keep myself from realizing how unhappy I was—AOL caught me on the downside for a while, so I just kept fighting at Howrey, thinking that I could make well-enough work into something great. Hah! Oh well, looking back on the last few jobs I had—ones for which I've been envied by more than one person, I see that I was fooling myself to ever accept them. I had forgotten that I could do more than be a lackey for underskilled, Peter Principle poster children who didn't care about the product but had just chosen a career and insisted on sticking with it without truly caring about what they were doing.

They simply become too easy too soon and don’t allow room for the type of growth and development that we need to keep breathing. iMote and Scenewash (and others projects of past and future) can give you that. I’m hoping that I will end up webmastering Fox Chase Cancer Center, and that the job will have enough challenges to keep me interested, honest, and sane. For now I wait for the call from Philly. Right now, I mow the lawn.
But each time I made the mistake of falling into jobs when I needed the money and was able to rationalize my way into accepting what I knew would wear out soon. Then I was able to add something to the job to make it seemingly great for a while. Then they didn't want a star, just a good team player. Well, I can be a good team player, but when I'm being asked to wash the uniforms and the team truly needs me in another position...enough sports metaphors...As I'm feeling some of that DC-bound bitterness resurfacing, let me bend this back to a less combative reality: I made some terrible judgement calls. But at the time, there weren't any better options I could have seen. I was too blinded by my defense mechanisms. And, even with the confidence I was often able to exude, for a period of time there, I didn't truly believe in myself and my abilities to do anything and do it damned well. I know that I can put together any web site, any magazine, any promotional campaign or technical budget. I just might have to work at it.

And that's what these McTech/McMedia jobs I've had have not given me (and would not give you or anyone else with vision and drive). They simply become too easy too soon and don't allow room for the type of growth and development that we need to keep breathing. iMote and Scenewash (and others projects of past and future) can give you that. I'm hoping that I will end up webmastering Fox Chase Cancer Center, and that the job will have enough challenges to keep me interested, honest, and sane. For now I wait for the call from Philly. Right now, I mow the lawn.

But now, I've gotta attend to those pesky HTML brats. Keep it clean, and the dirt will follow anyway. Busy with beaver and loaded for bear...strange how those epiphrases just jot themselves down along with the mustard and relish of a personality mirage. Lynn has not responded, although I certainly had no idea the phrase was anything but a toss-off. Tell me how it goes. I presume, it's like the "playing it by ear" and "that's my story and I'm stickin' to it" SET tune of the month. I can hear it already reverberating off the whispering pines of friendly Pennsylvanian platitudinal grace. Look forward to the update, but frankly, I think you and I are the only ones who "get" most of our poetic hucksterism. Occasionally Bob in good mood is generous with a Boblike compliment with adjectives like hip, post-modern, whacky, subterranean sprinkled in to authenticate a true Bob true grit compliment, and they certainly have increased over the years, but like Bracken, most often he's just a little quick to dismiss and a little slow to hammer out the dots, plumb the heights, and probe the depths but like all of us, prefers to hear his own voice than those of his neighbors.


Those imps of HTML will need some reintroducing to me—it's been a while since I've actually dug into code. Gotta go back to the basics a bit—save that source, localize those graphics, and start
playing with other folks' designs. Tables, frames, imagemaps,'ll take me a while, but I'll get back there.

Peace. Love. Digital Neighbors.


Intranetus Injection, Or Baking In The Technology Bloat, Sunrise Edition

07 Apr


If Looks Could Kill


Mon, 7 Apr 1997 03:58:07

The navigation bar you created, combined with the color (which looks great on my Wintel machine and fantastic on my Mac) is simply brilliant. I hope that no one will protest the button bar at the top. In creating a very simple text on solid background image, I noticed huge differences in the saturation of the image between the two monitors. Just tried adjusting the brightness, with great success.

Thanks again for all your help—I'm back in the game...

Peace. Love. Imagemaps.


P[e]S: Place all of these attachments in one folder, and start with opening.htm. Much work to be done, but gotta take care of some techie stuff first. Also, feel free to call at any point. If you're up early, I will probably still be up. And any comments on my material would be welcome (keeping in mind that it's still pre-alpha, of course).


blindWE MOURN THE PASSING. Allen Ginsberg's dead.The poet laureate of the Beat Generation died Saturday at his home in Manhattan. His liver quit living.

Steve. Tried to read your files first thing this morning. Nothing I have would read the text. I discovered that I did not have MacLinkPlus which I used successfully to convert Bracken's DOS WordPerfect files, on my machine just a few months ago. Poor housekeeping. Remind me to reprimand Hazel. Your files meanwhile are blank doc icons, not even PC tagged. So I fileshared IMOTE (my Mac) with HEDRICK (Sue's), and 3/4 of her drive was locked, feeding me garbage about not having enough access privileges. I went on to other things. Later I called Sue to troubleshoot that little annoyance, but have been too focussed on building the iMote Bookskellar to tear away. Will eyeball and get back to you later on that.

Did I already tell you that yesterday afternoon that Betty Sue's colleague Karen, and her boyfriend Pitch, brought her home from the airport? Yes I did, but did I tell you that he works in Public Relations for the Navy at the Pentagon, was impressed with what he had the short time to see of my site, and is perhaps interested in farming design work my way.

Mmmm...maybe you primed the pump, Intranetus.


Day At The Office In Three Notes Or Less

12 Mar


Renaissance Girl


That same flashing pilgrim URL I fixed yesterday has returned to its destabilized ways. Yours, too. Maybe it's a memory problem, but I really can't fathom exactly why. Each picture loads once but stops on the last one without recycling, although it works fine in the beginning because I always check them out. Yet the smaller, less frame-intensive banner animations still work. By the way did you notice I activated counters for your two new sites late Sunday night. And geez, that iMote TOC image map works like a charm from the GeoCities backdoor but not from the virtual server at iMote (TABnet). You just know things are going to get better in time, according to Moore's Law, but with bandwidth and modem speeds always poking us in the eye, I wonder if this will ever be worth all the strained nights spent in labors not of love but in testicle-numbing desperation...


Well, solved the imagemap duh...

Issue was in the HTML include. Should obey my mental notes. But there's one thing that still bothers me as a designer from a purely aesthetic perspective. All the books say continuity across a site is THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT of a layout, but until I master tables (yesterday when you called for CoolTalk I was flailing through Globetrotter trying to grip this next stage of design, it allows no frames) so that I can keep at least one section of the screen unchanged, I'm afraid I like experimenting far too much to stick to any SET design look. I'm a creative mess, I'm afraid, but I simply wanted to document problems and solving times, so here you go...

If I (we?) ever solve this animated GIF problem, here's what I will do: if you can get ten of your tekki buds to drop by and sign the iMote guestbook with some camouflaged clue that they would be interested, I'll follow up on that idea you had via a hidden door. Nothing close to kitchen duty, but how about a dozen or so knockdown dragout amateur babes in the raw chewing on nothing but a wonderful GeoCities URL necklace draped strategically to block the critics...

Check out Wayne Curtin's motorcycle vrrrooooom soundbyte on his page. It takes a short while to load of course but is seamless, and plays each time the page is refreshed.

I'm sure you remember Wayne is chief lobbyist for the Motorcycle Riders Foundation, having relocated here from Sturgis. It's not a very slick page, but the sound is slamming, and the page is functional. Can't wait until I put the iMote elephant and a few other choice bytes out there on mine...

Still sleeping irregular hours, but I am vigorously planning the next 48 around the CoolTalk and Howrey Simon tours....


Peace, love, and far out web pages on the fly...

Pollyanna On Uppers

31 Oct


America the Pollyanna


(Originally published on October 31, 1996, in a letter addressed to Ben Voos in Germany)

Just received your latest terrific turns of phrase. Forwarded the whole thing off to a few friends. You've done it again with that web site. Minimal. Elegant. Thought-provoking. I voted. The lined box to the far right, which was in essence, voting with the herd. I studied long and judiciously at the boxes before making my choice. What was I choosing? The one which reminded me of feelings I associated with something pleasurable? Or did I pick the ugly one out of the crowd because I am prone to exhibit low self-esteem at regular intervals? Or, perhaps I simply not know why but went with the leader, thinking others' good taste was what I had in mind when I explore a path of raw nerve?

That's a tough one. I immediately thought of lines drawn in with chalk generally in athletic arenas, basketball & tennis courts, uh, the far left box with the rose colored demarcations, right angles, parallel lines and yellow diamond, but too it's not, I just went back and voted a second time, this time for the first box. The absent of controlling rules worked to my advantage. I see your liquor bottles made the cut again, as did the kingdom of the grid blip.

I'm really embarrassed by my slow entrance onto the WWW. Just bought that new Mac 8500. It's allowing me, finally, after days of organization to bring some order out of the mess of HTML files and graphics I've been creating, storing some here, some there, inadvertantly losing some to the trashcan monster it seems more than once...

Your queries about domain costs: Paid $75 to have a third party register the name and paid $100 for the first two years of registration, after which I will be billed $50 annually to maintain ownership of the iMote domain name. That's the sum of it. The German full Internet charges you mentioned are rich...home ISDN line service is the BIG deal here in my neck of the woods. The tiny nearby state of Delaware recently passed a law mandating a $29/month ceiling for residential ISDN service anywhere in the state of Delaware. In the District of Columbia however, I cannot even GET residential ISDN line service, and they want over $500/month for a business hook-up.

Actually I applied for a rates and service spec from the Telephone Company a month ago and it never came. Seems in this polarized city a widening gulf between the haves and the have-nots, as usual, is the culprit. Big business and big government versus 50% of the population at poverty level being left in the dust by a crisis-building tax revenue shrinking middle class fleeing the gang-infested city for promises of cleaner suburban living. Problem is the crime and the gangs are moving right along to the suburbs in the same moving vans with these noveau bourgeois parents who always think it is somebody else doing the troublemaking...

Meanwhile, kudos again on creating an interesting site. And don't worry about what your EXPERTS say. They are saying the same thing here. Ripsnorting business and smiley faces are what makes this country get a hard-on for anything. Lord knows it ain't flashy nude television gameshows (like you Germans). America is a full-color gloss Pollyanna, but after a rough gamble with freedom and artificial habits up the nose, she's beginning to show some cellulite and wrinkle. I smell tragedy in that rag...


My Personality Disorder Is Calling Me

13 Sep

Kate In The Kitchen

Kate In The Kitchen


Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:45:56

You did it, buster, and without a speck of help. But can you get that image map thing to work? HTML personality is easy, but coordinating all that other stuff, now that's the sinew of the true hypertext bone bearers...

Our anniversary. Number 11. Nothing external planned. Was hoping Steve would drop by tonight but I guess he has now slipped into a bouncy inertia which is leading him straight to the woman of his dreams, or maybe mine, whatever. He's too busy for me in this hour of ephemeral need. After nearly a year of alleged indifference—my sensors cannot decode his silence, or general slack—concerning women, but he is now on the prowl.

I am comforted by the fact that I finally got something up on iMote even if the HTML is bogus. It was worth this evening's effort. Now onto the hot bard wire, as a sweet paraphrase of Tom Howell's wedding message would have us...

My personality disorder is calling me...


"Create like a God, Command like a King, and Work like a Slave..."


On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Gillian McIver wrote

I really really hate Bob Dylan he is a lousy hippy for god's sake and religious too. What kind of anarchism is this? —Gilt Ikonoclast

Too bad you're woefully misinformed, Gillian. His anarchy blew the world away, felling millions, and frankly, is the ONLY kind that makes any sssssssense until the next one arrives. That worked for him. That will work for me, not that I'm comparing personalities, or results, merely reiterating that single principle of speaking for myself, myself only. Dylan outwitted everybody, but the guy upstairs as he might put it. How he pulled this off was HIS OWN voice in the wilderness, the ultimate anarchy, sister. He DID IT now you DO IT.

IkONOCLASM is a two way mirror. I see you and nothingness GREW? Who's your point guard, the harried bomber hanging out down at the dynamite factory or the hand grenade general store tossing a couple of quick soda pops down the gullet while plotting the next outrage? It's ALL BUT been done before. Line up, sigh and sign autographs. Anarchy is on the skidz...

But yes, the firebugs will have their way again. It's the way of nature. Terra and cosmology.


"I fought with my twin, that enemy within, 'til both of us fell by the side..."
—Bob Dylan

Numbers Said Bob Make Mention Of Me

01 Dec

Bob Said

Bob Said


Date: Fri Dec 1, 1995 15:10:12 AM

Well, yes, Bob. This would be your very own FREE web page. You were among the "HTML sophisticated ones" I included in that batch. Several others across the country are either newcomers to the online world, or simply stuck in the past with old slow modems, or whatever, having never surfed at all. I have recently created three pages you might find if not interesting, then perhaps best described as friendly fire. Steve Taylor has compelled me into authoring HTML, and low & behold I'm just frantic with anticipation for others to join the ride. After all, this Geopages crowd out in Beverly Hills, CA is offering this opportunity to any and all takers as long as you have a valid E-mail address. They have their very own HTML emulator that you can use to create your page right there in a forms format. Just enter pertinent info in the fields, and presto! you've just created a home page. I did one that way, but soon learned enough used HTML to create them FTP the appropriate files over to the server.

One page took 24 hours to spring up, and the other only took an hour or so to pop up for general access. Just imagine. I only opened a PPP account a couple of weeks ago, and now I'm shadowboxing in the HTML badlands! Go figure!

Just checked out your HP, and as usual your comments ring a deafening bell tone in the bell curve of my own desires to be and not to be, to flee and not to flee, or simply, in the words of Piss Factory, to pee or not to pee. As little as self-indulgence seems to mean in your neck of the woods, and rotten poetry the futile clearing of your storm, art clichés are more a commodity for the heavily flavored than a sustaining power for the weakly favored, and frankly, I wish you would cut it out!

My heart, my fart, whichever you prefer. If these be the flames of betrayal and the aims of messianic denial, I'd say we are just about even. Meanwhile as both our neuroticisms and superiority complexes merge into one foul mood, I wish to comment on your prediction of the next wave of child prophets (rockers) being that of the clean cut Mormon rank. I agree, and I would also suggest the END is near for it is written that this generation of clean sheets following in the wake of the Devil's wordslayers will be the last, of course until the path of righteousness begins all over again in heated argument over the meaning of some ivy-spined love surrogate's last scream. Feast or famine? Lean years, fat years? Is there much difference beyond a few zeroes and maybe a decimel point or two? Thinking is a lie. Art is nothing but a glimmer of hope, and an economy few will ever afford without loss of the quenched thirst. One geek's self-indulgence is another geek's training ground for sainthood in a spreading pool of blood-soaked antics. There is nothing left for puppy dogs and perverts of inner circle design but paradox weaned, lion and lamb divined, fashion and fraud skewed, better halved than quartered alone. That sir, we cannot change, but since you asked in muted prayer, I'll change my ways for you, if you'll change yours for me because bad poetry is the ONLY art save THOU ART. Look around you. Even Milton was a liar. Stupidity and rigidity reign. The beautiful live forever. The ugly perish until they finally learn to absorb the laughter of the jackals.

And by suffering them you must also suffer me...

Just a refresher on those arguments you made here in the Dollhouse one afternoon I think not long ago. Of prospects and promises, uh, which one do you prefer, Bob? No, I saw it first. No, I did dammit...the hole in the ground was the whole of it, said Gabriel, in the old days before the advent of Styx and the completion of the proper post-punk cycle, suggested the leper who said thank you, the kid who scissored you to make a point in twelves, or slightly more, but not more and more and more and more until it all made the entire Joan Jett crew vomit, probably still stuffed on the hog heaven carpetbagger's special sea of beads they gobbled before the Bayou show full of suburban derby queens and BCR mullets. Scanning the packed crowd my own sharp black & orange mohawk posh caught her dangerous eye several times, but the hour the music died, without fanfare, we shuffled back to the SAMPLEX cave with Bennett & Lauren to stir the kettle twice the card. I'd be so shook up with chaos and blame, trick numbers in an off-alphabet game, knowing both Little Miss Jett and Monster Jeep ad sworn off the other like plague blankets in an earthquake, that I'd lamely end up settling for half-measure 3.5 inch head flat on my back, Lauren systematically snarking the red rag excuse, plainly playing for boa feathers instead of the usual black hearts flush of dick tag. VR snip? Bennett and Sue, sitting on opposing sides of us kept to themselves, not to each other. Their beautiful and knew it foo-foo Samoyed, Max, and our "hump anything this side of the Mississippi algorithm" Lab-shepherd mix, named Nickel Dog were caught and duped apart during the act of slapping, smacking and fellating each other, accounting for more drippy innuendo than any of the four tepid punk rockers in this stack managed that night. It'd be another six or seven years before I would gaze at Lauren naked again.

Wanna borrow the weed whacker, just show up at the door. You know you are the only person in the city I can say that to during these friendship wars. Well, maybe Len Bracken.

I dreamed I saw Saint Augustine,
alive as you or me...


aka Fats, Kidscissor...


"Ignorance and virtue suck on the same straw. Souls grow on bones, but die beneath bankers' hours.""